Hi. It’s been awhile. How are you? How’s the family? You see I’m only stopping by to comment on a recent piece titled “Why Everyone Wants a Big Dick Goth Boyfriend”. I know. I think there’s a larger conversation to be had here. I have coffee.
Much like the manic pixie dream girl trope, big tiddy goth girlfriend is also poisitioned to be of service to their counterpart. I think this stems from the aftermath of toxic positivity becoming more readily seen as toxic in society as a whole and the expectation that women are the ones who hold the keys to emotional support. A year old piece about Big Tiddy Goth Girlfriend (BTGG) is linked to introduce Big Dick Goth Boyfriend (BDGB) and it’s...not my favorite. It opens with the line “All of us, in some deep and undeniable way, yearn for the company of a big tiddy goth gf.” (Klee) There’s a lament there are not enough BTGG to go around. “Of course, that strength of personality is none too common — thus the goth gf meme frequently concerns one’s regrettable lack of same. There are, quite clearly, not enough goth gfs to go around (to say nothing of the big tiddy kind). Or maybe we have over-idealized the type to the point where nobody can hope to match it.” (Klee) Klee also tries to acknowledge objectification. “Despite the reductive or objectifying quality of the phrase “big tiddy goth gf,” it appears that the thirst for them is all-encompassing, independent of gender or orientation. It ends up being a pretty wholesome concept, the result being that quite a few people are happy to identify as a big tiddy goth gf. Social media is awash with selfies where they show off the goods in addition to black lipstick or pentagram earrings, carrying on the Elvira tradition, with the hashtag #bigtiddygothgf.” (Klee) But this just reads as a dodging or excusing the vein most of this article follows. I think onlookers might derive the hashtag use to serve as confirmation, “You see big tiddy goth gfs like being big tiddy goth gfs” and I will gently point out to you none of the aforementioned BTGGs are a part of the article. None of the #bigtiddygothgfs are quoted. But the things that did get quoted are from people who also want a big tiddy goth gf. Because it’s not about what you can do for BTGG is it? It’s about what she can do for you, should you be able to charm one. I don’t know many goth gfs who view their coldness as something to “thrill” people or “invite” them. “Her coldness, then, is both a thrilling mystery and an invitation into these depths.” (Klee) The coldness kind of became a thing necessary for navigating the objectification and harassment.
I’m mildly concerned for the BDGB.
“And while the only person who’s actually succeeded in getting one has been a bird, there are still hordes of WikiHow articles, subreddits and BuzzFeed quizzes that cater to our collective desire to be barely tolerated by a bodacious lady dressed in black. Real goths have pointed out that the meme is objectifying and incorrect, but it’s continued to snowball just the same — it’s now so popular that it has its own porn category, and even mainstream celebrities like Grimes have been given the undue title of Goth Girlfriend.” (Kohn)
The only one who who has succeeded in getting one has been a bird...is that a way to get people to protest/show off they have a BTGG and increase the engagement for the piece? Real goths have pointed out the meme is objectifying and incorrect, yes that’s true. When it shows up with tourists to the goth side we cringe, yes. It’s nice to see that someone, Biscottino, who posts nudes online, was included and more so it’s nice to see badass goth sex workers making the meme work for them.
I agree with Atyakk: “Yet, “manliness” has never been a goth goal. “There’s more to self-empowerment and self-confidence than ‘manning up,’” explains Aytakk, an Australian goth DJ who makes memes and videos about goth culture. “Masculinity can be extremely fragile, and most goth men aren’t bothered by it. We don’t have to be the strongest, toughest or most badass, and goth subculture applies no pressure to do so.” “ (Kohn) This seems to be one of the new rites of passage for newcomers following Goth’s increase in popularity. With more masculine newcomers there is a more noticeable shaking of the pressure to be masculine while also figuring out how to give themselves permission to express feelings. The ones who tend to end up staying are the ones who can examine their learned relationship to their masculinity.
I agree with Lestat: “Lestat, a gay 24-year-old who also posts to Reddit as a Big Dick Goth Boyfriend, tends to agree. “I believe all goth things are fully gender-neutral,” he says. “Goth men who indulge in this beautiful aesthetic do something that many men don’t — we have a personal sense of style. We don’t care if our makeup or nail polish might lead to people thinking negatively about us. That alone takes confidence, and confidence is sexy.” “ (Kohn) Makeup use, in particular, is something that has long since warranted harassment and bullying throughout goth’s existence for more masculine counterparts. But goth has always been about expression so fuck the gender roles.
Kohn goes on to mention some of the traditional(?) usual (?) goth icons and over 40 years later...I really wish more attention was given to more current icons. Goth’s changed quite a bit over the decades, the factors contributing to why people come to the subculture have changed (or worsened in some cases, capitalism for starters), and so the resulting creations of what make up the subculture have also changed. Often whenever goth gets a feature now from a non goth platform, Peter Murphy, Nick Cave, Peter Steele (though not goth), David Bowie (also not goth) and their versions of masculinity are what this current generation of goth get compared to. But I think this is a disservice as more members of this culture are expressing themselves fully on their own terms.
….There’s a weird section of “imagine a big dick goth boyfriend who is secure in his masculinity”. Personally, I don’t care about dick size so the repeated attention being brought to just how enormous this imagined guy’s dick is, doesn’t make sense to me. You had me at paint my partner’s nails and dress up with them… is this the same weird objectification thing that Klee was doing with BTGG earlier?
“As Dani, a nonbinary goth who hosts the goth talk podcast Cemetery Confessions, points out, focusing on the big tiddies and dicks of goths is objectifying. “Mainstream culture (see: cis, white men) tend to create sexualized and abstracted ideas around exotic ‘others’ in order to escape their mundane heteronormativity on a whim,” he says. “Fetishization of goths, whatever the gender, is always from the outside looking in.”” (Kohn) Please note the misgendering. THIS. THIS. Engaging with tourists to the culture frequently has the vibe of “come on I came here for interesting so be interesting. Not human, no no, that exotic other that I can escape into.”
“Doing so is also anti-goth. “The individuality-focused aesthetic of goth should allow for the veneration of all types of bodies,” Dani continues. “Taking into consideration the focus of big tits and huge cocks as traditionally patriarchal systems of objectifying and shaming the body, the meme simply doesn’t fit. Something more in line with goth humor and sensibility would perhaps be a ‘Big D(eathhawk) Goth BF,’ ‘Big Cheekbones Goth BF,’ or hell, even ‘Big Tiddy Goth BF.’ ‘Big Dick Goth BF’ is just too… pedestrian.” (Kohn) #pedestriangoth, I’m fond of “tourist” and “weekender” but pedestrian works too.
“At the same time, Aytakk is quick to emphasize that the impact of this fetishization is far greater for goth women than it is for men. “Most men aren’t harassed like women are,” he continues. “But if Big Tiddy Goth Girlfriend is dangerous, then Big Dick Goth Boyfriend is eye-rollingly cringey by comparison. Meanwhile, Non-Binary Goth Other-Friend is ignored.” (Kohn) As a non binary person, myself, I’m frequently asked about my dick having status or I get harassed for not “passing as nonbinary” so it’s my fault for not making this easier for them or in the before times, followed to my car so someone could “pick a more feminine suitable name” for me or threats of violence. (I’ll stop talking about these experiences when tourists to the scene stop giving me these experiences.) So seeing things like BTGG and BDGB seem more to me like trying to mesh heteronormativity into goth to make it more palatable to people who so deeply identify with their sexual preference that it’s not about what those words actually mean objectively, it’s about what the words do to serve the fantasy and the fetishization. I don’t really see goths fully seeking to match the connotations of BTGG or BDGB...but I do see people using it to increase visibility on their posts because it’s trending.
This sentence doesn’t make sense to me: “That’s why he’s (BDGB) gotten so little attention relative to the Goth GF — he’s one of the only guys who won’t disappoint her, so people keep him in the shadows (or so the theory goes).” What does this mean? What is this sentence trying to do? Who is locking away the non disappointing men? This is following Aytakk being taken out of context:
Quoted in the BDGB: “The dick does hold weight, though — just not the kind you’d expect. Rather than reflecting any sort of tangible reality or gothic in-joke, our obsession with honkin’ goth cock only serves to illuminate our own insecurities. “People outside goth subculture don’t like seeing goth men as competition,” says Aytakk. “It’s like the only way a goth man can beat Mr. Leghumper to getting the Big Tiddy Goth Girlfriend is if his dick is bigger than theirs.”” (Kohn)
Aytakk’s quote off of the Cemetery Confessions page: “Oh I think the meme defines a man by his “phallus” well enough. It is like the only way a goth man can beat Mr Leghumper to getting the Big Tiddy Goth Girlfriend is if his dick is bigger than theirs. Inside goth subculture I have never seen dick size being relevant but outsiders seem to think so as evidenced by the meme.”
I would like to see a larger conversation about masculinity and femininity in the future but I feel like inviting people in to respond directly to this piece would diminish a more open discussion about the role gender plays in someone’s involvement with goth culture. Between people’s responses and Kohn’s statements, it seems like Kohn continued with “But that big dick tho”.
There are a lot of factors revealed about goth here. How goth has evolved particularly online over the years and where the source material for pieces like this one come from and who makes them. Fashion being a communicative thing for those both looking for a place to belong and a place to express themselves and fashion also being used in some places as a qualifier of who looks enough of the part to be included with the in group. Add to that the larger conversations such as goth inherently lacking a core definition and what does it really mean to participate in subcultures. As much as people say it’s a music based subculture, fashion influencers are still the ones who get the most attention and thus the largest audiences while DJs and musicians are kind of left out in the cold. Throw in more complicated societal conversations such as gender roles and gender identity, depression and toxic positivity and of course capitalism, it’s quite the tangled web. There’s also a conversation to be had about hypersexuality, the hypersexualisation of bisexuals and the erasure of asexuality and aromanticism and I don’t think this piece furthers any of those along. To be fair, I don’t think it was trying to.
Until next time,
Don’t be hungry for life. Be ravenous.
Zakkarrii Edison Daniels
- Tags: goth